The Looting System...

Our guild has been into Kara since about January. We try to have a once a week run on a Saturday/Sunday since it accommodates the most players.

So far everything has been pretty causal. We quickly learned to put the raid leader as master looter to stop looting accidents... but our loot system has pretty much been if you need as an upgrade you get it. If its a minor upgrade for one person and a huge upgrade for another, the person who is most improved by the drop gets the loot. If two people are equally indeed the item is rolled for.

The problem however is recently some members whom we've gone out of our way to gear (particular tanks) have received a fair number of upgrades only to leave the guild... citing progression as the reason. They believe that the Healers/DPS are not progressing at an appropriate speed and so head off for greener pastures. Whats most disturbing are these are long term guild members who have been leveled up within the guild.

The flip side is some of our officers have voluntarily passed up loot to encourage and reward these players and so now feel left behind and under geared.

So the question basically is what looting system is fair but allows for the officers dedicated to the guild to get the gear?

I should add that one of the disgruntled officers is my wife... she's basically our MT and has passed up on loot to try and ensure the guild has equipped tanks for Heroics and OT's for Kara. Those we've worked to equip left and now she is single tanking Kara just wishing she didn't "let **** have those leggings"... Is there a fair way (that doesn't look like favoritism) to ensure she gets the equipment as we try to foster new tanks?

i think the /roll winner gets it you can only have one contested item per run meaning if someone else /rolls on the same item it's contested so the winner can't roll on anymore contested loot in less everyone else gets something then if no one at all is rolling and it's to be sharded or something it's free game for someone that's won a contested loot to have sometimes we make this 2 contested loots before your unable to roll

at the end of each run top rollers win whatever shards so there is a chance of each person getting one shard if you have enough for each person then pass out one shard per person

your post kinda sounds like what happened to my old guild back in the mc days we didn't find a way to fix it and many ppl left and it set us back for a while, however we made a DKP system each person gets dkp for certain things sending in stuff to guild bank, being on time to an instance staying later in an instance for homework on boss encounters killing bosses yada yada with the dkp system then the highest dkp holder for that item that dropped would get to have it if he or she wanted and if not it got passed down to the next dkp holder that could use the item and so on so this way if you work hard you get what you deserve out of loot and if you don't work hard you don't get much other then hand me down stuff, however this was an issue with ppl later then hording their dkp and stockpiling it then taking a bunch of items and leaving guild then there are new members joining the guild with no dkp vs the old guildies that have a bunch of dkp it sucks ass for them

all in all just find more dedicated and trust worthy players don't let ppl have more then one loot per run in less no one else needs the other loot so each person has their chance at some loot

i don't think there's any reliable way of stopping this. no matter how "fair" you try to make the system, it seems someone's always left out. this has happened in my guild as well, and i think the main reason it hasn't bothered many of us as much as it seems to be bothering you is because we aren't at Kara yet. we're at the point now where we could probably start Kara, but we're still waiting on some key runs to go down.

If you read the "Is Blizzard Dumbing Down WoW" snippet, follow on to the linked site and start to read the comments you definitely get the idea that a lot of causal raiders (of which I would class myself and the guild) have run into similar issues; although the trust of the post is about the availability of content to all players the "Elitist Raiders" - (their quote not mine), the following discussion to some extent hits on loot, loyalty and guilds in general.

I think I'm going try nyxtyr suggestion concerning contested pieces of equipment...

Are guild looting rules generally posted on the website or discussed before the run? (our current system is explained on in our forums). I would assume its generally good practice to inform any PUG members of the looting rules before they join... Any advice on quickly disseminating this information?

i've been pugging more and more lately, and come into contact with more and more people who don't understand respect or common courtesy when it comes to looting...the other day i joined a pug for ramparts with my newly outlanding holy priest, and before we started, said "can we just go over loot rules before we start quickly, so we're all clear?" the group leader said "do you want to lead the group?" as if i was being bossy, or asking the world of them. really, i just wanted to make sure that by following my guild's loot rules (pass on BoP), i wouldn't be screwing myself over.

just another symptom of people getting to lvl 60 (or 70) without understanding how to play nice with others...it makes me wonder what they're doing on an MMO in the first place...

As a rule does everyone roll Greed on BoE items, even if they are a major improvement for them?

Just an issue one of the guild members ran into...

in my guild, you are fine to roll greed on a green item (or a blue BoE)...however, if it's an upgrade for you, it's generally the rule that you just let everyone know you're going to roll need before you do, just in case someone else is slow on the draw to realize "hey that's an upgrade for me too!", but we're all friends, so if everyone greeds, and someone other than the winner states it's an upgrade and asks, they'll generally end up with getting the item.

hey do all of the the Tier tokens drop if a boss can drop them? (all 3) or does one just drop

Suicide Kings is a list system offering an alternative to /roll and DKP systems that unfairly favor those who can make every raid and can easily be manipulated to push out the talented, but time contrained, members of your guild.

I built this spreadsheet in MS Excel as a proof of concept for a mod I have in mind and the type of interface I'd like to build, but I'm feeling like just keeping it Excel is probably easier.

Tell me what you all think.

~T~

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Link to Download the Spreadsheet - WARNING! Requires you to allow macros to run - be careful that you only download the file from the Profit guild website.

Here is the link to the topic discussing this particular variation of Suicide Kings - It's a combination of Suicide Kings and Loot Council.

YouTube.com Video explaining the basics of how the spreadsheet is setup

Sample BBC Code Output of Raid Drops List

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE FOLLOWING IS A POST ON OUR FORUMS WITH
OUTPUT FROM THE SPREADSHEET
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suicide Kings Style Loot List for 25-mans -updated after each raid

The Issue: Need to track who's receiving loot and spread the drops around.

The Solution: Use a Suicide Kings style system and track it here on this list (updated live during raids).

Here's the spreadsheet we use to track loot (Excel 2003 or later):
http://profit.guildlaunch.com/guild/library/32245/SKList.xls - REMEMBER to Record Attendance and Refresh the Pivot Tables before using them

**NOTE: you MUST set your Security to Medium in the Tools > Options window and choose the Enable Macros button when loading this spreadsheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPkjO6L4D3I

Rules:

1) Top person in Loot Code list suicides or pass the item to the next on the list (tanks and healers get gear first).

2) Winner drops to the bottom of list under the last member in attendance. Others get bumped up the list Suicide Kings style - absent members hold existing spots.

3) Info next to someone's name indicates how many upgrades received on 25-man raids and the last number indicates number of raids attended.

4) Masterlooter/officers always reserve the right to determine if certain members can or cannot suicide items with special low drop rate, highly desirable items.

5) Masterlooter/officers always reserve the right on rare occasions to DEFAULT an item to someone in a raid and/or not suicide the person to the bottom of the class list for various reasons, such as current or future role in raids, class or spec preference related to an item, or being the only raid member who can use an item that is a marginal or miniscule upgrade. The purpose of this is to not see items get DE'd simply because an individual would pass them up to stay at the top of the list and wait for a much better upgrade.

6) **NEW**: If the Raid Leader has requested that you switch to an alt during a raid, your main character will be counted in the SK list as if it were in attendance and move up the list accordingly.

Loot Codes
T - Tank - Druid(Feral), Warrior(Prot), Paladin(Prot)
H - Healer - Priest(Holy), Druid(Resto), Shaman(Resto), Paladin(Holy)
C - DPS Caster *1 - Mage, Warlock, Priest(Shadow), Druid(Moonkin), Shaman(Elem.)
M - DPS Melee *2 - Warrior(Arms,Fury), Rogue
Y - DPS Hybrid *3 - Hunter, Paladin(Ret), Shaman(Enh.)

*1 items classifed as DPS Caster can be passed to Healers, if they can use, but preference is given to DPS Caster
*2 items classified as DPS Melee can be passed to DPS Hybrid, if they can use, but preference is given to DPS Melee
*3 items classifed as DPS Hybrid almost always favor Hunters over melee casters

1.0.0.2 =
- 1 suicide
- 0 trash loot
- 0 epic mats (nether vortex, heart of darkness, etc.)
- 2 raids attended since 3/10

YOU WILL NOT APPEAR ON THIS LIST UNTIL YOU HAVE ATTENDED A RAID

1 C (Pri) Sasilas 0.0.0.2
2 C (Sha) Lawngdawng 0.1.0.7
3 C (Pri) Dulce (shadow) 0.0.0.2
4 Y (Hun) Sigimli 1.1.0.4
5 C (Mag) Debauchrey 2.0.0.8
6 C (Pri) Tepal 0.0.0.7
7 T (War) Nasha 0.2.0.4
8 T (War) Elfs 1.0.0.1
9 Y (Hun) Durrthock 1.0.0.10
10 H (Pri) Dulce (holy) 0.1.0.8
11 H (Dru) Energetic 1.0.0.2
12 H (Pri) Elfss 1.0.0.1
13 H (Pri) Iceshadow 0.1.0.1
14 C (Loc) Lillandra 1.0.0.2
15 M (Rog) Varice 2.3.0.6
16 H (Pal) Dregin (holy) 2.0.0.4
17 Y (Sha) Lumines 2.4.0.6
18 H (Pri) Althalus 0.0.0.1
19 T (Dru) Annibus 2.0.0.1
20 C (Pri) Succubus 0.0.0.2
21 C (Loc) Erador 2.0.0.2
22 H (Pri) Chelese 3.0.0.10
23 M (Rog) Strongherth 0.0.0.1
24 H (Sha) Navare 1.3.0.9
25 C (Sha) Ntldrxp 2.0.0.3
26 Y (Sha) Geist 0.0.0.5
27 C (Mag) Shariandar 0.0.0.1
28 Y (Hun) Lilalust 4.0.0.2
29 H (Pal) Norrin 0.0.0.3
30 H (Pri) Thalia 2.1.0.6
31 C (Mag) Arapmoi 0.0.0.3
32 H (Pal) Alions 1.1.0.2
33 Y (Hun) Geto 0.0.0.4
34 C (Mag) Drae 1.1.0.5
35 H (Pri) Phatso 0.0.0.2
36 H (Pri) Jaqauy 0.0.0.1
37 H (Pal) Maidean 0.0.0.1
38 H (Dru) Yellania 2.0.0.1
39 C (Sha) Thundos (elem) 3.2.0.10
40 H (Dru) Mundrood 0.0.0.1
41 T (Pal) Dregin (prot) 1.3.0.6
42 C (Mag) Frostboy 2.0.0.1
43 C (Mag) Arterr 0.0.0.2
44 H (Sha) Blueguy 1.2.0.5
45 C (Loc) Bemorra 2.0.0.6
46 T (Dru) Shifthappenz 3.0.0.6
47 H (Pal) Ujin (holy) 2.1.0.7
48 C (Mag) Gegy 0.0.0.2
49 H (Dru) Rezurection 3.0.0.10
50 H (Pri) Pegil 0.0.0.1
51 T (Dru) Fenriz 0.0.0.1
52 T (War) Ibuliwyfi 0.0.0.1
53 C (Mag) Slickster 1.1.0.6
54 C (Loc) Caramela 0.0.0.1
55 Y (Hun) Cantgetright 0.0.0.1
56 M (War) Michaelson 0.0.0.1
57 H (Dru) Yggdrasil 0.0.0.2
58 C (Mag) Macha 1.0.0.1
59 C (Loc) Murdertrain 0.0.0.2
60 T (Pal) Smashemup 0.0.0.2
61 C (Loc) Chukknorris 2.0.0.3
62 T (War) Thrilldwarf 2.5.0.8
63 C (Loc) Firedahl 1.0.0.2
64 T (War) Shez 2.1.0.9
65 H (Pal) Ghanum 1.0.0.1
66 M (War) Blikefire 2.1.0.6